Modi knew about Prajwal's sex tapes for months, but still backed him...: Jairam Ramesh speaks on poll prospects, scandals
The Congress is on a vigorous campaign to unseat the BJP government. General Secretary (Communications) Jairam Ramesh spoke to DH’s Shemin Joy on the grand old party's campaign pitch and expectations.
The election process is progressing. What is your takeaway so far?
There are three reasons why I think that the atmosphere after the phase 1 voting on April 19 was to the advantage of ‘I.N.D.I.A. Jan Bandhan’ and why it got consolidated to the end of the second phase on April 26. First, it was clear that in the south, the BJP is not going to make any significant inroads.
But what most people missed is the turnaround in the north, particularly in states like Rajasthan, Bihar and Maharashtra. The momentum was with the Congress in Rajasthan, Maha Vikas Agadhi in Maharashtra and Mahagathbandhan in Bihar minus the JD(U). So there was clearly a shift going on at the ground level which was missed in all the opinion polls and surveys that are doctored.
So that is one reason why I believe that after phase 1 and phase 2, the momentum is with the Congress and the allies. The second reason which I think leads me to that conclusion is that at the ground level, one saw a lot of discomfort on the part of the BJP, which normally a 'chaarso paar' (400+) party will not show.
There was a lot of nervousness at the local level, particularly in Rajasthan, Maharashtra and Assam. The local BJP organisation, the local friends of the BJP, which includes the media, were a little unsure of what was happening.
The third reason is the Prime Minister's entire campaign changed after the April 19 voting. He had one campaign till April 19, another till April 2 and a different one from April 26. Mangalsutra, Muslims and inheritance tax have come up now. A repeat of 2004 is very much in the cards. BJP will not get a majority and the Congress and allies will reach there.
Is the Opposition effectively countering Narendra Modi's campaign pitch that changed after April 19?
See, Modi is laying a trap for us. He is building a Muslim pitch for us to bat on. He is building a 'mangalsutra' pitch for us to bat on. We are not going to bat on his pitch. You know our pitch is that the Constitution is under threat, democracy is under threat, farmers' issues, workers' issues, youth issues, women's issues and caste census. These are the issues we are sticking to. Check out our publicity campaign on TV. We have around 4,000 spots every day on our positive programme. Of course, it doesn't mean that you cannot let whatever the Prime Minister says go unchallenged.
We are responding to what the PM has said. He has clearly gone on to the communal agenda. There is no longer 'Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas', there is no Viksit Bharat, there is hardcore temple, there is hardcore Muslim. He is also now trying to consolidate SCs, STs and OBCs to pit them against Muslims. So it is very clear that this is a very mischievous strategy. But it is the strategy that comes naturally to him. What was unnatural was 'Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas'. His natural thing is Hindu-Muslim. We are certainly not on the backfoot.
When you say you won't play on Modi's pitch, aren't some Congressmen preparing a pitch for the PM to turn the tables?
If you are referring to Sam Pitroda, he may be the chairman of the Indian Overseas Congress but he's not speaking for the Congress. There is nobody who would be closer to Pitroda than me. Our relationship goes back to 1987 and I have openly repudiated what he has said.
However, one should know that the idea of the inheritance tax was first moved in recent times by Jayant Sinha when he was Minister of State for Finance. It was advocated by Arun Jaitley. BJP IT Cell head Amit Malviya supported it but I think he has now deleted those tweets. Between 2017 and 2019, there was actually a proposal for inheritance tax and only the other day one of the Prime Minister's economic advisers Surjit Bhalla said that he is not against an income distribution survey but it should be done after the election.
We are very clear that there is no mention of the word redistribution in our manifesto, there is no mention of the word inheritance tax. I think this rhetoric is a reaction to the Congress's campaign on ‘chaarso paar’ (400+). The moment he started talking of ‘chaarso paar’, our counter was that Modi is asking ‘chaarso paar’ to change the Constitution. Why do they want to change the Constitution? Because from 1950 onwards, the RSS has been saying there is nothing ‘Bhartiya’ about this Constitution and it does not reflect the values of Manusmriti. So, I think they got defensive on that and I could see this in Rajasthan where in the November Assembly elections the gap of votes between Congress and BJP was just nine lakh votes. There was a consolidation of the SC, ST and OBCs in Rajasthan and you could see it seat after seat. The Congress put the BJP on the backfoot. Now, they have stopped speaking about 'chaarso paar'. So Modi decided to rake up ‘mangalsutra’, inheritance tax etc. But Pitroda had no business saying what he said. I am not defending him. But he said it in the American context. The optics of it were bad and Modi pounced on it. But we were very quick to distance ourselves from Pitroda's comments.
But the Prime Minister has not stopped talking about it. What have you to say?
See, Modi in Solapur said the Congress is not even contesting the number of seats required for a simple majority. I mean, how much more of a liar can you be when to get a simple majority you need just 272 and the Congress is contesting over 330. He is betraying every sign of nervousness. He is talking about all things that are not in our manifesto? You know, he raked up Muslim League issue. What has Muslim League to do with farmers getting legal guarantees for MSP, or a poor family getting Rs 1 lakh a year. The only people who had an alliance with the Muslim League were his ideological predecessors. The Hindu Mahasabha and Syama Prasad Mookerjee, who founded the Jan Sangh, was a member of a coalition with Muslim League and formed a government in Bengal 1940. The two Indian politicians who praised Mohd Ali Jinnah were L K Advani and Jaswant Singh, leaders of the BJP. Modi's aim is to give the debate a communal colour.
This is the first election in 25 years in which a non-Gandhi is heading the Congress. What changes has made it to the Congress in terms of strategy and how is the Congress projecting Mallikarjun Kharge?
Kharge is doing very vigorous campaigning. He holds rallies every day. He is going to all states. The Congress president is an institution. Whoever is the Congress president is a pivotal figure because the party's constitution makes the Congress president a very powerful functionary.
Actually, we have superstar campaigners in Kharge, Rahul Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi Vadra. Sonia Gandhi is not a campaigner in a strict sense of the term this time. It is a fact that this is the first time a non Nehru-Gandhi family member is running the full-fledged campaign. But I don't see power centres in the party like Sanjay Nirupam alleged.
I work 24*7 in the party but I don't feel there are power centres. Of course, people have different points of view. Rahul-ji is a former Congress president and he certainly is entitled to a point of view. One has to understand that Rahul-ji has a special place as he led the Bharat Jodo Yatra and Bharat Jodo Nyay Yatra. Then he is around 30 years younger to the Congress president, so obviously he has more energy and much more stamina. But to say that he is overshadowing the Congress president, I don't think that is right. I listen to Rahul-ji when he tells you what to do. But all our conversations end with him saying, please check with the Congress president.
Why is there a delay in announcing the candidates in Amethi and Raebareli? Is it creating a perception issue for the Congress?
This can be interpreted in two ways. One way of interpreting your question is does the party want them to contest? Is the party keen on their contesting? I think the answer to that is unanimous. Yes. It went to the extent of the entire Central Election Committee days ago appealing to both Rahul-ji and Priyanka-ji to contest. I don't think there is a single Congressman in any part of the country who does not want Rahul-ji to contest from Amethi and Priyanka-ji from Raebareli.
Now, what we want and them agreeing to contest are two different things. I have not discussed this with them. I have no inside information except to say that when I was in Amethi and Raebareli during the Bharat Jodo Nyay Yatra, a lot of people I met wanted Rahul-ji to come back to Amethi. Those included people who did not vote for us in 2019. I am hoping they will contest. On the question of not contesting the seats impacting the party, I would say there will be disappointment but you have to move on and continue to fight. I don't think the party will get a jolt.
Will it be right to say that by not contesting these seats, the Gandhis are abandoning north India?
Both Rahul-ji and Priyanka-ji are campaigning in north Indian states extensively. I agree that contesting and campaigning are different things.
It seems there is disagreement and confusion within the I.N.D.I.A. group. Why is it that you do not have a common agenda?
There is no confusion in the alliance. Seat allotment has been done smoothly. The UPA alliance was formed after the elections in 2004 and a common minimum programme was then formulated. The present situation is different.
Aren’t the developments in Surat and Indore a setback for the Congress?
The BJP has been winning in Indore and Surat since 1984. These constituencies are BJP strongholds. This time BJP has got the hint of defeat. For that reason, old cases have been dug up and the candidate has been made to withdraw the nomination papers.
There is a tendency to revive old cases and threaten Congress leaders. The other day one leader came to me and said he will have to leave the Congress. He told me that they have opened his income tax returns for the past 20 years as well as the property tax returns. He said he has already got a first notice of Rs 32 lakh and it should be paid in a month. He started crying in front of me saying he does not want to leave but he will have to. This is the tactic they are using with everyone, whether it is Ashok Chavan, Ajit Pawar or Praful Patel. They have vulnerabilities. Not everyone is like D K Shivakumar. Shivakumar did not give in to BJP's threats.
In the Prajwal Revanna scandal, both Congress and BJP are engaged in a war of words. What is the Congress' take?
The real issue is that the Prime Minister knew about it from December 12, 2023. He is photographed with Prajwal Revanna on April 14. In spite of this, he campaigned for Revanna and Prajwal, especially the latter. He did not tell H D Deve Gowda that he will have an alliance with you minus Revanna and Prajwal.
There are claims that D K Shivakumar was also aware of the complaints. What is your response?
Anyone can make such allegations. You should remember that a BJP leader wrote to their leadership. The Prime Minister was made aware of this. Whether it is an election or not, this is inexcusable. It is also inexcusable that the Prime Minister knew about it for at least 4-5 months. When he was being photographed with Prajwal, he knew about the pen drive. That is the real issue.
Are you hopeful of the 2024 election results?
I am hopeful that 2004 will repeat in 2024. What happened in 2003 was that we lost Chhattisgarh, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh. In 2023 also, we lost all these. In 2004, there was no Prime Ministerial candidate. We don't have one now either. BJP had unlimited resources then too. There is a parallel in 2004 and 2024. Then there was the India Shining campaign. You have the '400 paar' campaign now. This '400 paar' will be their India Shining moment.