Conversations between Donald Trump and Mike Pence provided key evidence for prosecutors

Some of the most specific and damning pieces of information laid out in the indictment charging former President Donald Trump with conspiracy came from conversations between Trump and his vice president, Mike Pence.

Pence, who met with federal prosecutors months ago, appears to have been among the witnesses who provided recollections of his discussions with Trump. Prosecutors also obtained contemporaneous notes that Pence took.

The indictment tells a lengthy narrative about Trump’s effort to force Pence to thwart President Joe Biden from being certified by Congress as the winner in the Electoral College in the days leading up to January 6, 2021. Pence had a ceremonial role overseeing the certification of the election in Congress, and Trump repeatedly urged him to use it to keep Trump in power.

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Pence told him several times that doing so exceeded his authority.

In great detail and with specific dates, the indictment describes Trump as using a series of routine interactions with Pence to try to coerce him into doing what he wanted.

“On December 25, when the Vice President called the Defendant to wish him a Merry Christmas, the Defendant quickly turned the conversation to January 6 and his request that the Vice President reject electoral votes that day,” prosecutors wrote in the indictment. “The Vice President pushed back, telling the Defendant, as the Vice President already had in previous conversations, ‘You know I don’t think I have the authority to change the outcome.’”

Another instance, which Pence had in his notes, came December 29, when Trump told Pence that the Justice Department had found “major infractions” in the voting, which was false.

Then, three days later, on New Year’s Day, Trump called Pence and berated him because he opposed a lawsuit asking a judge to rule that the vice president had the authority to reject electoral votes.

“You’re too honest,” Trump told Pence, who described some of that interaction in his book, “So Help Me God,” last year.

Trump tried again January 3, the indictment says. Again, Pence pushed back.

The indictment lays out not just conversations that Trump had with Pence, but talks he had with others about Pence.

“At the meeting in the Oval Office on the night of January 3, Co-Conspirator 4 suggested that the Justice Department should opine that the Vice President could exceed his lawful authority during the certification proceeding and change the election outcome,” the indictment says.

“When the Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel began to explain why the Justice Department should not do so, the Defendant said, ‘No one here should be talking to the Vice President. I’m talking to the Vice President,’ and ended the discussion,” the indictment says.